For an average user, just a home user who needs just a computer to browse the internet, listen to music, read PDF, do some LibreOffice stuff (word processing/spreadsheet)… he does not care about tweaking or configuring the system, he needs only to do such things.
For that purpose the “Welcome” app does a great job. He can update the system and install a few extra software in case he needs.
So, for the average Joe, he might not even need to use the terminal ever.
he just launches the app(s) he need, update the system through “Welcome”… and that’s all what the average Joe cares about.
“Welcome” app does the job for the noob and the average Joe.
So, we are talking the same language I see.
Sort of… yes. Simply because EndeavourOS deserves to be the top used Linux distro, no. 1 on Distrowatch, the default Linux!
This is what I am talking about. Why intimidate some people!
You know that, I know that… but noobs and the average Joe do not know that, you need an adventurous noob and an adventurous average Joe to try a “terminal centric”!
Just not to hijack the thread, maybe someone interested in may create a specific thread.
Because we’re not really GUI by default. It doesn’t mean you can’t be, it just means if that’s what you’re ALSO expecting upon install, you’re going to be disappointed. Nothing throws people more than unrealistic expectations.
Nothing being wrong doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement. Yes “terminal centric” is accurate and intended, technically…so the question is how to communicate that is a more user friendly terminal than most? We’ve got GUI buttons to launch most of those terminal tasks, we default to nano instead of vim, theres an update notifier in the GUI, plus pacseek is floating around in addition to the common apps installer in the Welcome app. This is definitely NOT an “open the terminal and type things to do anything” distro. But when people are “terminal centric” that’s what pops into their head.
I am just saying what my reaction was when I saw terminal centric, and obviously I am not the only one because @limotux had the same reaction, therefore there are probably others too.
I never stated there was anything wrong with it, I just believe, based on my own and @limotux’s initial mental process, that the promotion could be improved.
I don’t dispute that, but what sort of users are the new arrivals? Are they in the same category as @limotux and myself? There may not be any info about it, but I doubt they are below intermediate.
I agree, but the way people’s expectations are formed are influenced to no small degree by how the distro is presented. Right now there is too much focus on terminal centric. It does not have to be black or white, and I am speaking from experience as someone not entirely new to Linux but is not even at intermediate level. Yet, for someone like me EOS is entirely possible, in fact, like @limotux said, EOS is even appropriate for people who are new to Linux as EOS is set up such that those people can feel at home, and with this fantastic community any problems those people encounter will be resolved.
Again, I am merely speaking from the mental process I went through before I decided to take the plunge. And if I had not had a spare, non-production computer on which I could install EOS (“metal on metal”), I may never have taken that plunge, and missed out big time.
Yes, it is possible to try it out in a VM, but it is barely comparable. E.g. I was turned off Solus in a VM, but when I actually installed it, none of the problems I had encountered recurred.
It’s not a right now thing. That’s a day zero thing. That was one of, if not the most important things to note about the the distro.
While that may be true, the focus wasn’t ever to specifically target new users, but intermediate terminal centric users. That isn’t to say new users can’t use it.
Let’s not get into an argument about the semantics, I believe we both know what I mean.
OK, but why not target those users too if 2 relative newbies like @limotux and I a shortcoming in the presentation.
Look, at the end of the day it is no skin off my nose how EOS is presented: I have discovered it and am as happy as anyone can be. Whether others discover it or not is none of my business nor does it affect my EOS experience.
I just think it is a pity to not show a certain category of (potential) Linux users that a newbie’s choice does not automatically have to be Mint or Zorin.
Furthermore, there is another very important aspect: rolling release. A lot of people make a big deal about a rolling release being less stable than a fixed release, therefore newbies, you should not go for a rolling release because you’re in for trouble.
That is a load of BS: point releases (not sure if that is the right term, so what I mean is e.g. 20.0 ➙ 20.1) can also harbor problems. EOS has proved to me so far that it is incredibly stable, and you as a more experienced user can probably confirm that.
So, the rolling release aspect is also something that can/should be more highlighted in the EOS presentation.
If you target them you need to cater to them. They will ask why we don’t have. GUI app manager, or why Bluetooth isn’t enabled. And they should be in a beginner distro.
Also, there’s already truly FANTASTIC beginner distros, why be another? How many intermediate distros are there? It seems to be doing rather well, if I were a decision maker here, I’d keep doing what they are doing, as it’s working exceptionally well.
Then the forum might be expected to support it, and pamac is a Manjaro product, not an EndeavourOS one. Plus it’s iffy when it comes to the AUR. It’s fine for those of us who understand the disadvantages and are willing to deal with them, but for beginners, probably not. I’d definitely steer them more towards pacseek, which is not only pretty user friendly and mouse friendly, it’s also comes under “terminal-centric”
I would also say that EndeavourOS is not a beginner distro. And the dev team doesn’t want it to be, that’s decided. There’s really no “beginner” Arch-based distro (let us not speak of Manjarno), and I’m not even sure there CAN be a beginner Arch-based distro in the first place, but I think that there’s a fair point that EndeavourOS is not as scary as “terminal centric” can imply to some. Maybe not for beginners, but I definitely recommend it as a next step after a beginner distro, mostly because it provides a nice easy step into terminal operations.
I agree the welcome app is a great intro but obviously the intention is not to maintain eos with the welcome app forever…
Well what happens when a package breaks or this user starts installing AUR packages… They ideally learn how use the terminal to maintain their system. That’s where eos steers you, but everyone is free to use as they want. If a newbie wants to use eos and only the welcome app to install their software, great for him/her.
However, users might get much more out of this distro by using the terminal, hence all the efforts and resources to inform the user and gently introduce that. At least that is my perception of the distro.
Edit: I was also a newbie (like everyone else), in fact I recall using Manjaro and pamac, and an update bricked my whole install. The gui installer didn’t help because I was lost and had no clue what the process was. Next step was to distro hop back to Ubuntu. Same story for Antergos. It took several years to go back to an arch based distro. From my personal experience, I highly recommend getting familiar with the terminal and package management in arch asap to get the most out of it.
Edit 2: average home users will want to install zoom or Skype, and maybe have an Nvidia card…
I don’t think we need to rehash all this again. The website explains it quite clearly. We have had many new users that have settled in without too much trouble.
" EndeavourOS is an expressway to install Arch with some added tools we developed ourselves and even not all of those tools aren’t installed by default.
We want to provide you to explore Arch with that same friendly community-feel Antergos was known for and whether you use FOSS apps, closed-source apps, a combination of those and solely use the terminal or use GUI tools in that exploration, it is up to you, it is all about the journey with us!
Because we believe, THAT is the real power any Linux system can offer, so explore it with your needs.
EndeavourOS has been on this journey for almost three years and in that time a lot of issues and questions have been answered, so don’t forget to use the search function on the forum, go to our wiki or you can also search the Arch wiki for answers.
So enjoy your space-walk in the Linux universe on your endeavour and who knows which destiny you might end up with during that quest for knowledge. Three and half years ago, we would’ve laughed in your face when you told us we would create and maintain our own distro… "
I disagree. One certainly does not need any experience in any other Linux distro to be an effective user of EndeavourOS. In fact, Arch wiki is the best GNU/Linux documentation, and EndeavourOS has the best support forum in existence. So, EndeavourOS (being mostly easy-to-install Arch) is absolutely perfect for beginners.
But EndeavourOS is certainly not for everyone. It requires a specific mindset: desire to understand your operating system internals and willingness to put in the effort required to do so. People who are turned off by the idea of reading the manual are probably not going to have a very good time with EndeavourOS. But this is a character trait, that has very little to do with one’s experience.
That’s why it’s not a beginner distro. There is a difference between a general beginner distro, and a distro that may be applicable to some beginners that may be more comfortable with computers in general or intend to take a longer path learning some of the finer details under the hood, which a lot of enduser types have zero interest in. Endeavour CAN be used for certain beginners but it’s NOT a general beginner distro.
What’s a “general” beginner distro? Such a concept seems utterly ridiculous to me, as there is no such thing as one-size-fits-all when it comes to Linux.
