Ready or not here is Linux?

I think the difference is in what you came from (as he mentions). Linux isn’t the best that I ever used - just the best LEFT ‘in the mainstream’. AmigaDOS and BeOS are pretty marginal these days… :grin:

He is quite right there is no reason for Linux to get to be more like Windows! I was a bit put off at first by the default Cut/copy/paste hotkeys, and the foolishness (to me, at least) of the min/max/close buttons being moved to the right on some DEs for instance - as far as I could tell because Windows did it that way (from Apple fear apparently).

Of course, this guy is nearly as old as I am, which makes him smarter (he agrees with me quite often!) :grin:

1 Like

Learn to unlearn what you’ve been taught…

I think the biggest issue with the question of “Is Linux Ready for the Desktop?” is defining the expectations for a desktop system.

If you want gaming youre definitely screwed now on Apple hardware compared to Windows and Linux, so does that mean MacOS isnt ready. How about some form of privacy, is that the expectation because MacOS and Windows both fail compared to linux. If youre expecting a Windows experience MacOS and Linux wont satisfy that.

People need to understand that while there is a lot of money behind linux in many areas, the “desktop” aspect of Linux is largely handled by the community or groups like Gnome or KDE. The big money players in Linux havent focused on it for things outside their use case. Even Valve has been lazer focused on gaming not the Linux Desktop as a whole. If you want big money features someone has to put that time in, and if theyre not getting paid they have to do it in their spare time.

Some of this article is just plain silly when criticizing linux as a desktop. What are we supposed to do about the Nvidia situation, the lack of good driver UI, or that fact that they go out of their way to prevent folks like Nouveau being able to implement proper support for new GPUs. Thats Nvidias fault, they COULD do it, but they dont want to and have left it largely the same for 10yrs+

Monitors/display suppport (also check the X system section below):

!! 30bit displays are unusable under Linux. Firefox is very slow, Google Chrome is broken, KDE doesn't work, Steam crashes, etc. etc. etc.
!! High-refresh rate monitors are not properly supported as Firefox and Chrome sometimes default to 60Hz. At least Firefox has a workaround: you can set the desired refresh rate in about:config using layout.frame_rate.
!! HDR is not supported.

This is fair but also I would like to note that REAL HDR displays arent common and 30bit displays even less common. Those using 30bit displays have a workflow already 9/10 times and arent going to switch to a different OS be it Linux, Windows, or MacOS because that down time is money so it hasnt been a concern until some folks made it one recently.

Audio subsystem (the section needs to be updated for PipeWire but it’s not yet deployed by most distros, so it’ll come later):

Both PipeWire and PulseAudio are not configured out of the box to support multi-user mode (e.g. multiple users sharing the same device simultaneously) and configuring them to enable this feature is impossible for the average user (no gui whatsoever, you need to edit text files).
Echo cancellation is a PITA (and most likely impossible for most users) to enable both in PipeWire (no instructions as of now even though the feature, the echo-cancel module, has recently been added) and PulseAudio.
Hardly a dealbreaker but then audio professionals also want to use Linux: high definition audio support (>=96KHz, >=24bit) is usually impossible to set up without using console.
Various audio effects like volume normalization are not included or enabled by default by most distros.
!! Advanced audio configuration is available only by editing text files in console.
You cannot have per device default sampling rate frequency.

Pretty sure some of this is wrong, at least regarding pipewire, having to use text files is true but the number of people that care about their audio settings is fairly few. It can improve but most people only care if sound comes out they dont care how or why.

There is too much else to go through but you catch my drift. I think some of this is fair but some is just silly, not well informed, or nit picking some extremely edge case for the sake of an argument point.

EDIT: Just one more to comment on

Very incomplete hardware sensors support, for instance, HWiNFO64 detects and shows ten hardware sensor sources on my average desktop PC and over fifty sensors, whilst lm-sensors detect and present just four sources and twenty sensors. This situation is even worse on laptops - sometimes the only readings you get from lm-sensors are cpu cores’ temperatures.

WHAT DO YOU WANT US TO DO ABOUT THIS!? On windows they have drivers for it from the manufacturer, Linux gets screwed unless you use a system by a company that supports Linux. I.E My Dell machines give me a lot of temp sensors and even ones for the actual dimm slots. If a company wont support us we have to wait for someone to reverse engineer it. Thats not the fault of Linux.

EDIT:2

Many anti-cheat protections fail to work under Linux. Besides in Linux it’s near impossible to guarantee that game assets haven’t been tinkered with (think of transparent walls for first-person competitive shooters like Counter Strike Global Offensive, Valorant or Apex Legends).

Again not something anyone but the original devs can fix, but also how do you figure “it’s near impossible to guarantee that game assets haven’t been tinkered with” ? if it was that easy CSGO cheaters would flock to linux in a heart beat (they dont, because its not)

!! Linux lacks an alternative to Windows Task Manager which shows not only CPU/RAM load, but also Network/IO/GPU load and temperature for the latter. There’s no way to ascertain the CPU/RAM/IO load of processes’ groups, e.g. web browsers like Mozilla Firefox or Google Chrome.

:thinking: :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Nvidia will not release an open source driver because their business model relies on differentiating their products with the help of said drivers by introducing artificial limits and disabling sets of features at software level.

They have features for their professional quadro line that are only enabled in the driver, although the non-professional line would also theoretically be capable of those features. In the mean-time they charge a few times more for their professional line compared to a mainstream product with the same architecture. Releasing the source of the drivers means people would be able to unlock features in the mainstream products and bypass the need to shell out triple or even ten times the cash for the professional line.

Also they have recently introduced mining limiters in the new cards and gaming limiters on the mining cards. This is also a driver thing. Again they charge a premium for their mining only cards.

This is why they will never open source their drivers unless they give up this business model first. Since this business model is hugely profitable there would have to be a very compelling incentive to give it up.

2 Likes
1 Like

I definitely agree with a lot of what this guy states. Especially the gaming part. A lot of people use Linux because in the meantime, a lot of Windows games perform even better using Linux. They read/heard it somewhere.Gamers fight for every FPS they can get, which in my opinion is totally unnecessary. This is, in my view, the wrong motivation to use/switch an OS. In my opinion it would be much better to just buy a gaming console and just stop this hardware buying/selling madness. I have to admit, that years ago, I have also been one of those guys spending tons of money for new hardware. From a personal economic and an environmental point of view, it doesn’t make any sense at all. You’re just supporting the already way too big companies who have too much power.

2 Likes

Oh we’re back here, are we?

…I have been yelled at in these forums a lot because the FOSS invested do not understand the concerns of the majority of people.

I have yet to install Endeavour (or any Linux) on my new tower because of two reasons:

  1. I am still too busy playing games.
  2. More to the point; I am not interested in Linux for ideological reasons, I just think it’s fun tinkering with computers and Windows work too well to be fun to tinker with.
    2a. However I am good enough to get Linux up and running now that I literally have to break it on purpose to have something to tinker with, which actually means the annoying things are the only things left.
    2b. This means I really question if installing it is really worth the hassle since again, the only problems I will face are problems that literally can’t be fixed until Linux / DEs progresses further into useability. The rest is just janky design decisions, infighting devs (not here, but for DEs, applications etc) and fights between different application developers “I won’t support your stupid DE because you’re stupid!” - “Well your video player SUCKS! We have a much better one that is actually worthless but we made it ourselves so screw you!”

That was my disclaimer.

Anyway, back to topic:

Devoted Linux users (which i argue are not the majority, the majority of Linux users are actually NOT western anti-corporate / pro-privacy “nerds” but just normal users in India / Pakistan / China and South American countries who use Linux because schools and universities use Debian or Ubuntu and for no other reason) just doesn’t grasp the needs or thought process of the average computer user. Kind of similar, actually, to how the devoted Tesla users don’t understand how anyone could use a “Normal” car instead of their obviously superior machine created by the obviously genius inventor.

The key part is that FOSS enthusiasts can yell to the moon for months about privacy issues, decentralized issues and Open Source, but the normal user is simply not prioritizing these things. They want things to work. They want things to work first time, without any issues. And Linux does not do that.
Normal users do not expect, or tolerate, having to reinstall drivers, edit config files or anything else. Just like the normal car owner won’t do anything beyond filling gas / charge battery, check oil and then paying attention to if the “time for service” light is lit or not.
Linux is still, in car terms, in the 1970s, when car owners were expected to be able to change the oil by themselves for example. These days very very few owners of new cars do that. Ever.

Again, Windows / MacOS users are not “Stupid”. They just have different and very sound priorities and if we want them to adapt to Linux we have to do something else than to push the same points for ever that they don’t care about.
It is not a matter for most people of “do I want my privacy invaded”? It’s a matter of "Choice A works. Choice B does not work or only works after spending 30 hours on it plus 5 hours a month in maintenance).

The year of the Linux Desktop literally will never happen, because the Linux community doesn’t exist. It is a myriad of different communities, each developing their own distros, fighting over what DE is least horrible / most perfect, using 50 different package managers and 30 different package formats, and most important acting like anyone that proposes a standard or get “too big” is a sellout and a threat to freedom and so gatekeep Linux from the average user at every turn.

(Rant off)

Edit: I have been posting here a lot about the need to remove / fork GTK+ from the Gnome Team, because they are in effect slowly destroying all other GTK+ using DEs by tying the development of the toolkit closer and closer to Gnome, making it less and less useable by other DEs built on it.
For example I have a very very hard time seeing Xfce or Cinnamon ever being able to move to GTK 4 for this reason.
BUT, from an outside perspective, leaving my own preferences for DE aside, having an eco system totally dominated by one or two DEs (Gnome) and one toolkit (GTK+) is exactly the one way forward to usher in the illusive “year of the Linux desktop”. Which is the sad truth.

1 Like

image

3 Likes

Yeah, if history has taught us anything it is that when someone claims he knows the will of the “the majority of ordinary people”, your knee should jerk a bit, just like when someone says “I am not ideological”. :rofl:

1 Like

@Beardedgeek72
Nice to see you back again. First of all, I’m glad to see you again and in a way, you confirming nothing bad happened to you, by paying us a visit. (Referring to the recent global state we’re all in.)

I do understand that your rant is addressed towards the general FOSS community, but you should know better how this community rolls. Having a thing to be passionate about, in your case Gaming, is a wonderful thing and that you have found the perfect solution for it in Windows is great to hear, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart. Of course, you should go for the solution that works best for you, that is what counts in the end.

I can’t help feeling a bit hurt by what you just stated and I’m not saying you’re wrong about the state of Linux. Although there are a lot of distros out there that make it convenient for the general users, but putting that aside, what hurts me is the fact that you were once one of the regular faces over here (and on Antergos), then you politely said that, because of your Gaming, you went back to Windows not that long ago, again, which is fine. I mean, you even helped set up a Wikipedia page for us. And now you made a return with, well sort of, a bazooka on your shoulder, blowing down your former fellow members.

I’m not saying you have to agree with everything over here, especially in the Lounge section, but with this, you are also judging this project with the same general assumption you have about Linux and FOSS whilst you know we don’t share that thought.

To everyone over here, let’s keep the discussion civil, I know you can :wink:

8 Likes

Well I think it is more pointed towards the users who derail on-topic discussions about things like “ewww Micro$hit, you should never use anything they have hands on”.

Good example is the “which patches arch kernel” thread which derailed totally. And its not the only one. It might look funny or as a joke but it might not to other users that are coming into linux or endeavourOS. This forum is still a “bright star” in the general linux community but it generally takes just few bad apples to make users (especially new users) not feel welcome.

Yes you should try to use FOSS as much as possible but at the same time not judge users who use products from companies that don’t offer FOSS products. Sometimes the user has no other option because of work or someother requirement.

3 Likes

Oh what an ugly example of gaslighting:

“Stop criticising and expressing concern over a global corporation that has an unmatched record of malpractice and customer betrayal, because that makes newbies feel unwelcome!”

How does that even follow?

Another example of dishonesty. Nobody is judging users for using proprietary software, we are just warning them against it.

I haven’t met anyone (online or IRL) who hates someone or thinks poorly of them because they use windoze. I think such a person is being foolish and careless and, since I normally care about them, I will warn them about the dangers of it. It is unfair and dishonest to criticise someone who says “you should not run while holding scissors” as being judgemental towards people who run around holding scissors! :man_facepalming:

It is almost as if you know that we care about

  1. being welcoming to newbies
  2. not being judgemental to others

so you package any criticism of your global corporate agenda as being “unwelcoming” and “judgemental”… Very unfair, but completely transparent!

2 Likes

And this is totally un-needed in on-topic discussions.

The user propably has a reason to use the service/product/whatever and “warning” them doesn’t really bring anything to the table for the user.

And now you’ve shifted the goalpost, before it was:

And now it’s

:face_with_raised_eyebrow:

9 out of 10 times, the reason is unfamiliarity with the alternative. In this case, there is a lot to bring to the table.

It was just a reply to you, my previous post still applies.

Hey @Beardedgeek72 !

Well yeah, I think you’re right with many of the things you said. But, I’m not sure what’s the point?

Are you saying that Linux should change? Become more centralized and unified? Just one package manager, just one DE? So more ppl can work on those and get those more polished? Nah, I don’t like that at all. For me, the freedom of choice is a big plus of Linux.

I guess Linux (for Desktop) will never really become “mainstream”. As you said, (sadly) most ppl don’t care about FOSS, privacy, freedom of choice, etc. They want something they know and something that works for them.
Now, I used Windows myself for many years and I know it doesn’t always " just work". On the other hand, there are already Distros that are really stable and very well suited for Beginners. But: Ppl know Windows and they just don’t wanna relearn things. Personally, I can’t understand this. For me it’s always interesting to discover and learn something new. But most ppl are not like this. They just wanna have what they already know.
So, as I said, Linux will never be a legit choice for Joe Average. And therefore I don’t think the Linux community should waste too much energy to try and cater to those ppl. OFC we all want to get more ppl to use Linux, but I think it’s the ppl who have to change (their thinking) to get to Linux, it’s not Linux having to bend to get to those ppl. IMO it shouldn’t be a priority for Linux to get as many users as possible.

Just my 2 cents

4 Likes

Exactly.

I would go even further and say that the major advantage windoze has over Linux is that most people are familiar with it. Things certainly do not “just work” on windoze (at least any more than they do on Linux).

Sure, some proprietary hardware is made in such a way that it only works on windoze. This is not an issue with Linux, though, but hardware manufacturers being scummy and either intentionally screwing Linux users over (because they get subsidies from the big tech) or they just don’t care (more often than not).

As I’ve said many times before, the biggest difficulty of getting used to Linux is unlearning windoze. Again and again, I found that people who are fairly inept at using computers switch from windoze to Linux almost painlessly, while it’s the windoze “power users” who struggle with Linux tremendously, and criticise it for not being “more like windoze”. Unfortunately, it is this second group of newbies (former windoze “power users”) who often influence the direction of development for various Linux software (mainly DEs). In my opinion, being unlike windoze is the best thing about Linux!

The fact that so many windoze programs even work on Linux, thanks to Wine and similar projects, is a miracle in itself.

3 Likes

No, that wasn’t my point. I directly reacted to the poster, since he played a quite significant role in the realisation of this project, that’s all.

And @inffy and @Kresimir let’s not go into an endless back and forth discussion. :wink:

4 Likes

That is true.

My mother is actually using EndeavourOS KDE right now and she have no clue, because everything looks exactly the same from her perspective: Firefox browser, file manager, looking at pictures and watching movies etc

And obviously system maintenance will be done by me anyway regardless of OS, because she’s not too tech-savvy :smiley:

I wounder if she will one day say to her friends:

I use Arch, btw!

4 Likes