Suggestion to rewrite or remove "Idiot's Guide to EOS Maintenance"

I believe there are some issues with this forum post that should be addressed. When users search for information on updating EndeavourOS, this post appears prominently in search results. However, I have reservations about its recommendations.

Firstly, suggesting the use of “yay” for updating an Arch-based system may not be the best advice, especially for new users. It’s essential to emphasize the officially supported method, which is “pacman -Syu.” Encouraging reliance solely on “yay” could lead to confusion and potential problems down the line.

Additionally, relying heavily on “yay” for updates might inadvertently encourage users to utilize it for installing packages from the AUR without fully understanding the risks involved. The AUR lacks the same level of moderation as official repositories, which could expose users to potentially harmful software.

In conclusion, while the intention of the post may have been to provide helpful guidance, I believe it could be improved by promoting best practices and emphasizing the importance of caution when using third-party tools like “yay.” It’s essential to prioritize the stability and security of users’ systems.

Furthermore, considering the potential risks involved, it may be prudent to consider removing or revising this post to ensure that users are provided with accurate and reliable information.

3 Likes

While I agree that outright removal may not be necessary, I strongly advocate for a thorough revision of the post. My primary concern stems from the potential risks associated with the current recommendations, particularly for less experienced users.

My suggestion to revise the post is driven by a commitment to promoting safer and more informed practices within the community. It’s imperative that the first search result on updating EndeavourOS leads users to an official and reliable method, such as one endorsed by EndeavourOS or Arch Linux.

Moreover, I understand your point about EndeavourOS attracting a diverse user base, including those who may be less experienced with Linux. Given this reality, it becomes even more crucial to ensure that the information provided is clear, accurate, and conducive to a positive user experience.

In conclusion, while I acknowledge the value of providing additional information on “yay,” I believe it’s paramount to prioritize user safety and system stability. Thus, a revision of the post to align it with best practices is essential.

1 Like

I actually disagree with this. Promoting a reliable AUR helper like yay instead of updating directly with pacman will be more likely to promote updating AUR packages which are just as important as updating any other package.

Further, providing a simple one stop solution to updating is an ideal given the intended audience for this guide.

Why do you believe that updating with yay isn’t endorsed by EndeavourOS?

2 Likes

My concern regarding updating with “yay” stems from several factors:

  1. Risk of AUR: While “yay” is a convenient AUR helper, the AUR lacks the same level of moderation and scrutiny as official repositories. This increases the risk of users inadvertently installing malicious or poorly maintained packages, which could potentially compromise system security or stability.
  2. Clarity of Documentation: EndeavourOS, like many distributions, likely provides documentation and guidelines emphasizing the use of “pacman” for system updates due to its status as the official package manager for Arch Linux. Encouraging users to rely primarily on “pacman” ensures consistency and clarity in the update process.
  3. Target Audience: While EndeavourOS may attract a range of users, including experienced Linux enthusiasts, it’s important to consider the needs of less experienced users who may not fully understand the nuances of AUR packages and helpers. Promoting a straightforward and officially endorsed update method helps safeguard these users from potential pitfalls.

In summary, my concern is not that updating with “yay” isn’t endorsed by EndeavourOS per se, but rather that it may not be the most advisable approach for all users, particularly those who are less experienced. Therefore, I advocate for providing clear and consistent guidance that prioritizes system stability and security.

Just to add some extra concerns, having a potentially misleading or risky forum post as the first search result on Google is concerning. Search engine results play a significant role in shaping users’ perceptions and behaviors, especially for newcomers seeking guidance.

The prominence of this forum post underscores the importance of ensuring that it provides accurate and reliable information, particularly given its potential impact on users’ experiences with EndeavourOS. Ideally, the first search result should lead users to an official and vetted source of information, such as the EndeavourOS documentation or forums, where they can find trustworthy guidance on updating their systems.

Addressing the prominence of this forum post in search results should be a priority to safeguard users and uphold the reputation of EndeavourOS as a reliable and user-friendly distribution.

@InvisibleRasta I think you made your point. Additional long-winded AI-generated fluff is unlikely to make your argument more compelling.

8 Likes

I appreciate your feedback regarding my post.

1 Like

I think you’ve misunderstood what EndeavourOS is and what it isn’t.

It is not:

  • Arch for everyone
  • Elitist (even though it isn’t for everyone :sweat_smile:)

It is:

  • Arch for users who don’t want to install Arch in the boring and tediously longer “Arch Way”
  • Bundled with packages that allow users to easily maintain their system

Yes, there are many new-to-Arch and new-to-Linux users who have chosen EndeavourOS as their distro of choice, but the team is small.

The wikis on this forum were created not just to help, but also to limit issues on users’ systems. So, for the argument against yay, it seems you didn’t notice how many times this wiki links to the Official Arch Wiki. → SIX times.

5 Likes

First of all I would not call this a wiki by any means. Also it does not link to probably the most important wiki page on the Arch Wiki that would be this one and many others that teach you how the AUR works.
I do agree that updating yay packages is important but “teaching” people to use yay to update the system is just wrong even tho yay is a pacman wrapper. There is tons of resources on the Archlinux website that advise not to do so.
Also no one would suggest an aur helper as you say to “limit issues on users’ systems” without even explaining what the potential dangers come with it. It is clear that this “wiki” is for the users that have no idea on how an arch based system work and need a step by step 2 line “wiki” to do the upgrade as they never took their time to actually understand the command they are running.
But again this is just what I think and you are free to tell people to dd their home partition to upgrade the system if you feel that is the right way to upgrade the system. We are in a free world, miss information is in 99,99% of the internet. Lets just keep feeding the masses with it.
I will part out of the discussion as I feel it will not get anywhere, just wanted to let the developers know that this is the first resource provided by google when searching for “endeavouros update”. And maybe something official should be in its spot.
:ninja: ### I’m Going to Practice My Ninja Skills and Sneak Away Now ### :ninja:

Unless I misunderstood, I thought this wasn’t a wiki post and that https://discovery.endeavouros.com/ is the official EOS wiki?

The wikis on this forum were created not just to help, but also to limit issues on users’ systems. So, for the argument against yay, it seems you didn’t notice how many times this wiki links to the Official Arch Wiki. → SIX times.

Probably is referring to the links in the initial post, which are all pointing towards the Arch Wiki.

Aside from that, I was one of those new to arch and new to linux folks that installed EOS as is and didn’t look back like over a year ago. And it seemed pretty straight forwards to me. :stuck_out_tongue:

2 Likes

The cost of popularity is newbies will use your stuff even if it wasn’t intended for them originally. So, you try to help while giving references. It is on them to use the references. And based on the number of clicks I see for each link, they’ve used them… :wave:

I was actually calling this thread a wiki. But the correct word should’ve been “tutorial” or “guide”. My mistake.

I think you totally miss the point of my post. I wonder if you even read it.
And yes i see one million clicks here:


Speaking to a wall is not something i feel nor want to do I am out. Peace

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/system_maintenance

You’re asking me if I read your post.

Did you read the original post of this thread? There are links to the Arch wiki, as you’ve acknowledged, and the forum shows that they’ve all been clicked many times.



Just in case I have some privilege that makes me able to see it.

That wiki page has nothing to do with what I am talking about.
I am done. Good luck

2 Likes

As far as I know the Discovery Page is the official wiki for EOS but users can create a topic like such. I’m not that knowledgeable on all the features of this platform either. It was written as a guide for users. I don’t necessarily agree with everything but i also can’t fault it to such a degree that makes me Arch hardened or shall we say Elitist. It was done quite well with the best intentions for users and new users alike.

I think the use of yay has been explained quite well in Discovery and i personally use it myself without any fear or trepidation.

https://discovery.endeavouros.com/aur/yay-an-aur-helper-written-in-go/2021/03/

I have no issue with the guide as it is not intended as a be all end all solution. It’s just an overview to help with updating and upgrading and maintaining your own installation.

3 Likes

honka_memes-128px-50

2 Likes

You’re welcome to create another, or make suggestive edits for me. I’m surely not re-writing it though, it took quite some time with all of the links and such.

yay is or was the only AUR packaged directly built and shipped with the Endeavour installation. That would seem pretty clear how it’s endorsed by the project, which is why I specifically used it.

This project IS NOT Arch, as noted by others and folks I have spoken to, and even argued with about my including it in the original write up - publicly and privately. (noteably @Stagger_Lee - thank you seriously. I was without question wrong initially, you were right. Sorry again and again.)

I was flat out wrong when I originally wrote this and had notes and direct terminology for Arch directly included within it. I was wrong to have done so and made sure to have removed all “Arch” specific wording and directives from this, and to note this is for EndeavourOS specifically and no other project.

Since day one, Endeavour was never intended to be a beginner linux distro. More for folks who used Arch and either have gotten lazy and don’t care to install the longer way (don’t forget archinstall wasn’t really a thing). Thus where the “intermediate terminal centric” user came from.

I wrote this as just one way to maintain your system. It’s not all encompassing, it’s not the only way, it’s maybe not even the right way (if there is one) as you are saying. It’s just one way that someone who had no idea where to start could start.

My writing of this came about because at the time, this question was coming up CONSTANTLY from users and instead of typing the same thing in redundancy, I made a thread we could just link people to. No matter the intent of EOS and still now not being a “new user distro,” we still seem to get a lot of new users anyways.

It was so well received it even ended up in the welcome post. I had no idea it would ever have this many views, or end up the defacto Google EOS update search.

It’s based on the “A Complete Idiot’s Guide to …” book series. I thought it would be fun. Plus, everyone here is aware - I’m a complete idiot! So I wrote a guide and now my royalties allow me to live in luxury.

I have already asked and suggested that yay not be included in Endeavour. I personally think it should ship with zero AUR packages and that if people want to use the AUR, they should have to build it themselves. . . But since it is a very specific outlier, and that easy access to the AUR was deemed mission critical out of the box, it seems/seemed like the most logical thing to use.

Again, the project directive was never towards new users, but those who already knew these things. Those who are using the AUR should know the risks and consequences prior to doing so prior to installing anything from it.

@InvisibleRasta Please write/submit another update/maintenance schedule/thread/etc. If it’s better than mine, mods/devs can take this down if people feel this is no longer of use/help to the community. I’m not planning on re-writing it anytime soon, and I’m so busy right now, I wouldn’t have time even if I wanted to. And I’m not too proud if everyone thinks it’s time to retire - by all means go for it. I appreciate your concern, and look forward to reading your updated version soon. It’s gotta be better than this. I mean come on, an idiot wrote it.

12 Likes

I’m at a loss as to why this informative post from 2022 (still completely relevant by the way) has devolved into a discussion and/or debate as to its merits.

  • I’ve used yay for several years without issue.
  • Perhaps the discussion on the merits of yay should be in a separate thread, so as not to dilute this one.

Me too for more than 4 years. I don’t seem to run into too many issues with package builds but then again I’m using packages that are fairly well known in the AUR.

1 Like

Firstly, the EndeavourOS wiki does not mention or advocate for the use of yay to update the system. In fact, it provides alternative instructions, as clearly stated in the official EndeavourOS wiki.
https://discovery.endeavouros.com/aur/yay-an-aur-helper-written-in-go/2021/03/

The very first thing you encounter is a disclaimer regarding yay.

Warning: Installing packages built from the AUR is at your own risk. These build instructions are user-provided content and not supported by Arch Linux, so be aware that installing from it can cause system failures.

Perhaps the most crucial addition to your post would be an explanation clarifying the implications of running yay, ensuring users understand the actions they are taking.

There is actually a very good article explaining how pacman works in the endeavouros wiki that you can see here.
https://discovery.endeavouros.com/pacman/pacman-basic-commands/2021/03/
that I do not see you linked to your post. Maybe that is how the endeavouros team expect users to update, who knows as in the forum posts they just seem to prefer yay. So there is quite some contradiction between what they say and what they write?! I don’t know, I honestly do not understand.
But anyhow whichever way yo look at it your method is perhaps not the most correct and potentially dangerous. A disclaimer should be added since you are possibly pulling packages that no one ever revised from the aur.

Yes I have seen this repeated in various occasions yet I stil don’t understand then why anyone with enought experience would even search on google “how to update endeavouros” since its expected that users in here are not “newbs” and they alredy know the answers or better they know how to get their answers navigating trought wiki pages. yet your post is in the Newbies category. I don’t understand.

I do not see why they should remove it, its not about having it as an option or not but educating people on what it is and it is not and how to securely do system maintenance. Hence why I am asking you to at least add a disclaimer to your yay section to atleast inform this “experienced” users that come across this post that they should be precautious about what they do with the AUR.

I don’t agree with this at all. Adding a GUI installer to a distro that does not want/have one makes it so it will be more appealing to the new users. Same thing happens to 99% of the distros with installers. (But anyhow this is totally offtopic and comes down to personal view)

I think it’s really important to include a disclaimer because many users might not even know what yay and AUR are. Without any mention of what yay is, newcomers might just assume it’s the standard way to update EndeavourOS. But what about those users who don’t use the AUR and have no idea what it is? They might start using yay without realizing they’re installing packages from the AUR, which could cause confusion and unintended consequences. That’s why I believe a disclaimer is necessary to make users aware of the potential risks and differences between standard package management and AUR usage.

I appreciate your invitation to create a new guide, but I’m not interested in competing with anyone or teaching experienced users how to upgrade their system. My intention is simply to address something I’ve noticed that is clearly incorrect and potentially hazardous, and to bring it to attention.
I simply offered my perspective on the matter, hoping that it might prompt someone to add the necessary disclaimers to the post and ensure that users are fully informed about what they’re doing.

Ultimately, since your post isn’t a wiki, perhaps the primary concern lies with the Google search results not directing users to the official EndeavourOS wiki. Many individuals, including the developers, have already expressed disagreement with my perspective, asserting that your guide is flawless. Given this, I believe it’s best for me to step away from the discussion, as it seems unlikely to yield any fruitful resolution.

1 Like