rEFInd is great, and I use it, but it has a tendency to get wiped out every time a dual-booted system with Windows runs the monthly cumulative Windows update 
There is a great solution to that problem, remove spyware-OS 
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No, we were already talking about it long before this issue because there are some things from a development point of view other bootloaders handle better than Grub. But nothing has been decided yet. Like Grub, every other bootloader has its flaws.
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I use rEFInd on my laptop since more than 6 years, some distros + Windows 10, never had such problems.
After the Grub issue, I tried:
- systemd-boot (was OK, simple⌠I liked it, BUT no support for booting to snapshots - I hope it would be considered)
- rEFInd (looks nice, but surprised me it was booting through Grub in the background! So what is the point?
I really hope systemd-boot will supports booting from snapshots. (BTRFS, Btrfs Assistant, Snapper, Only ONE OS âEndeavourOSâ and only one user here)
I would love to rEFInd because of simplicity. My humble knowledge and experience, rEfind was using Grub in the background! (so what is the point?) Requires a specific kernel? Needs some tweeking to boot to a snapshot?!
@otherbarry Well said. Even though it may be unheard, and unpopular, I wanted to expand a little bit on your point.
Users here, despite all the âhelperâ programs, are using stuff on the bleeding edge. They like that fact and will complain when a new version of a program is not released fast enough. Then, when a program has a glitch and the fix requires them to actually DO something to fix it, they complain loudly that not enough testing was done.
NEWS FLASH: You canât have it both ways. If you want the new and shiny stuff right away when it is released, then there will be a lack of testing. If you want proper testing, then you canât get your new shiny right away.
BREAKING NEWS: Even WITH testing, not all bugs will be found. Such is the case with GRUB. From reading the bug reports and talking with other Arch users, not EnOS or Manjaro users or that cesspool of Reddit, some had the issue others did not. It seemed to be random. Those are the hardest types of bugs to squash.
The fix is out there. It works. It takes a little bit of effort on the users part. Luckily, there is a patient forum available to help users walk through the process if they are confused by the fix.
Dropping GRUB because you had ONE issue with it is, in my opinion, just silly. If perfection is what you are looking for to continue using a program, then you will be sorely disappointed. One thing though, replacing GRUB with something else on YOUR system is your choice. If that works for you, great! That is the biggest thing I love about Linux, choice.
Despite its flaws, GRUB still offers the most versatility natively compared to other bootloaders that are available. This allows distros to reach the most amount of users with their live ISOâs.
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As EndeavourOSâs reputation grows and it becomes more popular it naturally attracts more users. Unfortunately (?!) it now attracts some users who think it is a perfect ânever goes wrongâ place to experience Linux. There is no such place! Yeah this forum is a helpful place, but people, please understand what ârolling releaseâ really means. @otherbarry made very valid points in a previous post.
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Never happen. They want the ânew shinyâ without any consequences or having to do (gasping dramatically) work.
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Perhaps some people are getting caught up in the âmemeâ and want to be elitist and say the old âI use Arch btwâ and with the advent of distros like Endeavour and others making installing it as easy as any other distro itâs maybe fooling them into the false sense of security (even though Endeavor clearly states itâs terminal centric and really isnât intended for those completely new to linux).
Thereâs clearly a lot of users out there that donât know what they signed up for when they installed Arch or an Arch based distro.
I think it was very poor of Arch not to have a news post or some kind of acknowledgement up at the very least, I saw the Endeavour post shared all over the place because it was quick, clear and concise.
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Thatâs the problem with fame. 
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I just want to again reiterate two things from my post.
- We havenât made any decision yet about grub or how to handle this long-term. We are being careful to not to have a knee-jerk reaction here. We are waiting to understand the responses from all parties first.
- We have been having conversations about switching bootloaders for the last several months prior to this issue occurring. As stated, we havenât yet made a decision.
Refind boots everything it finds including grub. If you only had options to boot through grub, you need to do more configuration work on it.
To be clear, part of the issue here is that this functionality wasnât released. The Arch grub package pulls in unreleased code.
We have never used grub on our live ISO
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Got it. I forgot I was on the internet and should be hyper accurate with my posts. Please let me correct my statement.
âThis allows distros to reach the most amount of users by having systems that work with the most amount of systems when installed from their live ISOâs.â
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I wasnât being pedantic. You made it sound like grub was providing some type increased compatibility with live ISOs.
I donât think this is more true than your other statement. Even if we switched bootloader options, it wouldnât cause the distro to work on fewer machines. There are plenty of distros that donât use grub.
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This isnât just an Arch issue. There are a lot of linux users who lack technical knowledge that are using other versions of linux as well. This is no different than users of Windows. Just because these people lack the technical skills doesnât make them inferior to Arch users or any other. We are all different. People come from all different backgrounds and we as a lInux community should be inclined to help educate other linux users period. We are not just Arch users btw. We are linux users. We are a community that supports the endeavour to make everyone an Arch user. That wonât happen without being helpful and teaching others the knowledge that those of us have or aspire to have.
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Agreed, but perhaps (maybe) we should post a warning in our intro to advise potential users that going with a rolling release distro does come with certain risks, and with that comes a responsibility to be able to deal with problems as they arise? Just a note on the website and forum. 
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We already have a pretty clear explanation of that on the website.
That being said, I am not seeing a lot of complaining about this issue. It isnât like we have been flooded with users yelling at EOS and complaining that we mismanaged the issue.
Most of our user base has been very understanding. Many of them just needed help in getting their systems fixed.
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No one will read it.
Look at how many people wonât even read a huge pinned post at the top of the forum about âthe GRUB issueâ when they experience âthe GRUB issue.â
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Great, awesome. I am fully aware of that. Please stop reading into my statements things that are not there. There was NO hidden meaning in my posts, but what you attached to them. Thank you.
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No, people are not yelling at EOS, but people are still jumping in with apparently little thought. Iâve just looked at the website again. I must admit I havenât looked at it for quite some time, it has certainly evolved and improved. I did my install in Sept 2020 and all I do is visit the forum and keep my system updated. I see the help is there. 