An interesting rant on Arch users

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I agree with what he said. Actually, I am both a user (Fedora Workstation) AND a hobbyist (Arch with most any DE). I have only used two distributions over many years starting with Red Hat 7.something, and Arch starting in 2003. No other distribution has been on my work stations. On my hobby/test computer, no other distro for more than a day or two or maybe three.

Pudge

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Thanks for putting this video here. I found it to be very interesting. It’s funny that he’s still using Debian-based distros. Over the years I have had far more problems with these distros (Ubuntu and variants [including Linux Mint], MX Linux, and a few others) than I have had with the (now) three Arch-based rolling releases (Antergos, Manjaro, and now EndeavourOS) I have used and am still using. but he’s obviously far more Linux-experienced and knowledgeable than I am.

I hope that you and others continue to post videos such as this whenever you find them.

Thanks again.

Lawrence

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It’s some valid points. I don’t agree on everything though.

edited

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He’s exactly right. It couldn’t be said any better. The novelty of installing Arch the technical way wears off pretty quick. Not everyone is interested in knowing everything that technical. They just want to be able to install an OS and have it work properly without spending hours or days in frustration trying to figure it out and most likely can’t. For those that do there are always lots of challenges.

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I like what he had to say, but somewhere along the line he mentioned that he runs a debian based system. I find that a but odd, since he’s all for a Arch based system and not “pure” arch.

I here from time to time people syaing after you get Arch installed or Gentoo compiled and running, you then know Linux. A long time Gentoo user/developer, said no. Once you get Gentoo compiled and your system up and running you’ve learned Gentoo!

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Linux is not my hobby, nor is it my job. I just can’t tolerate Windows 10.

  • Hence, my careful preservation of XP. :wink:
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Listening to it right now. 15 hours for Gentoo? Well, Gentoo Linux is more:

“Let’s start install on monday, it will end friday… Yes, but friday in which week?” :joy:

5 hours installing ArchLinux by hand? It took me around an hour last time because I was installing an Archlinux for the first time on an EFI powered computer.

ArchLinux is a hard distribution to manage and keep alive.

Installers for Archlinux are a good idea, but for people with a minimal technical background. When problems arise you’ll have to use command line interface tools.

This is why I will never say to someone which is a complete newcomer to linux with a small or no technical background to use Archlinux or one of its installer.

EndeavourOS is a great tool. But it is like putting an hammer in baby’s hand. Your house will pay it sooner or later.

That a 10 years long Archlinux user point of view :crazy_face:

@vmclark you’re absolutely right. Even if I learn more in the first six months on Linux using Archlinux than the two years I spent before with Ubuntu.

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Indeed, finally someone have thoughts similar to mine. I think that it would be good to discuss who actually is the target audience for EndeavourOS. If you ask me- experienced users, definitely not linux newcomers.
On website it looks like super friendly distro for everyone, but if I’ll put my wife in front of it she probably wouldn’t agree on that. In my opinion it’s still a distro for power users that don’t even need kalu or zenmap preinstalled :wink:

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It is clear which audience we target, the website does not imply EndeavourOs is for everyone. We don’t ship apps to make Arch easy, The first sentence on the website begins with:Are you that distrohopper… and not Are you new to Linux… That already implies it’s not for everyone.

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You are right, I read it again and it says nothing about ‘welcome all’.

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There was a time, going back to the 90’s, where the “Arch way” was “THE way”, whether it was Debian, Slackware, Red Hat, or the other available distributions at that time. Early Linux was mostly adopted by computer people savvy with Unix who wanted to tinker around with a non-proprietary Unix-like OS friendly to x86 architectures. Most of the early users were already well-versed in using the command line, the primary interface for professionals using computers up until that time, whether with Unix, VMS, or other largely main frame based systems. Even desktop workstations using early X-windows GUI’s were largely used for command based remote access windowing to various server and mainframe systems via telnet or “rlogin” protocols. By the time Linux was conceived in the early 90’s, a gradual introduction of Windows PC and Macs into the office to supplant expensive, proprietary workstations was taking place, with more user friendly GUI applications (and relatively inexpensive). Enter the ubiquity of the PC/Mac dominance of the desktop market for both business and home uses. In the last 25 years, a couple of generations have entered the technical field and its associated end user community with only a rudimentary knowledge of the command line and terminal. They’ve come to demand or expect sophisticated GUI applications to take care of the underlying “techie/nerdy” stuff making the computer actually work. Most of these people are fairly tech savvy on a surface level, at least enough to make computers work for whatever they need to accomplish. Going back to the “Arch way”, in comparison to just using a graphical installer, seems like an unnecessary throwback to just “getting work done.” Gentoo, “pure” Arch, Slack, and the like are indeed appealing to older tech folks (often for nostalgia) and computer hobbyists. I personally, having started in computing in the 70s (yeah, I’m getting up there in age), enjoy the control and transparency Linux offers for the desktop as compared to Windows or MacOS, especially now that somewhat more user friendly distros have flourished. I’m thankful for what desktop distros and installers offer with a balance between the “geeky stuff” and convenience. I’ve done a few installations of pure Arch and Sackware (in the last few years) just as an experience, but have no wish to deal with all of that on a regular basis. Keep up the good work on Endeavour!

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Interesting aside on Arch vs. Debian: I have my EndeavorOS install well set up. On my older experimental computer I attempted to create an identical install based on Debian Testing. Debian is a rolling distribution, mostly up to date, and except for a few apps it matches the Arch install. In one case I had to downoad a binary from a developer’s website and crudely copy it over an installed file. (I’m sure that will eventually blow up.) Two missing terminal apps are the deal breaker. I’ll have to manually compile source code, something I hate doing on an apt-based distribution. So far Arch wins.

Except for Plasma packages, apparently…

LOL. Xfce 4.14 was there, which is what I cared about. Also to actually use this old PC I require the proprietary Nvidia drivers. And any attempt to install those drivers “the Debian Way” will brick the PC… EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Arch always wins! :rofl:

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I agree, Rolling all the way! Every time I install Ubuntu it has troubles logging in or it takes longer and longer to boot. Too many driver issues and networkmanager issues to count on my fingers and toes.

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What do you think is the exact difference between a distrohopper and a hobbyist?

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Linux#The_early_years

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I think the generation who compiled the kernel has disappeared. Nowadays, this is no longer necessary, or the process itself is much simpler. https://www.linux.com/tutorials/how-compile-linux-kernel-0/