A discussion on the ownership of (digital) intellectual property

[anon31549144]

I can tell because there is no one doing it: investing 2-3years of millions worth of research, then releasing the results for free. I mean, this system would totally out-compete the patent-driven research. There is nothing stopping the two from coexisting. Yet only one exists. That’s because the other one is just a pipe-dream. As long as people need money to live, this system cannot exist.

[Kresimir]

@anon31549144

There is nothing stopping the two from coexisting.

Of course there is, it’s called patent law.

It’s not a fair competition. One side gets protection by the government, and anyone who tries to use their results gets taken to court and fined, or worse. Of course, in such a sickly climate, people are incentivised to apply for patents and to hurt anyone who tries to compete with them. The possibility of getting a monopoly and having the game rigged ruins everything.

[keybreak]

@anon31549144

Also you didn’t sign the laws either, yet they are binding.

Exactly, in my personal view that makes all the laws that exist in current governments around the world completely illegitimate, might is right type of “deals”.

There are extremely rare edge cases however, where people explicitly agree with actual covenants and laws of the land or got excommunicated (some Switzerland cantons for instance).

[Kresimir]

You do not need to sign a contract that you are not going to kill anyone in order to be liable for punishment for murder. Just because a law is one-sided, does not make it immoral. But yes, there are many laws that are completely unjust. The whole concept of “intellectual property” as opposed to real, tangible property, is just one example of injustice present in laws.

[keybreak]

I’ve said illegitimate, not immoral.
Those might be the best laws in universe, but what is immoral - forcing them without explicit agreement of both sides.

P.S. I didn’t mean violence of course, that goes without saying you can’t murder without consequences for your actions…Life is tangible property of it’s owner

[ricklinux]

@Kresimir

The whole concept of “intellectual property” as opposed to real, tangible property, is just one example of injustice present in laws.

Totally disagree with you on this!

Intellectual assets are what is referred to as “intangible” assets. They include inventions, new technologies, new brands, original software, novel designs, unique processes, and much more.

To protect your intellectual property you submit applications for a patent, trademark, an industrial design or for the registration of a copyright. That is what ever applies to your situation. This is what the laws are for.

[Kresimir]

As I have proven above, it is impossible to have the concept of “intellectual property” without actually violating property rights in real, tangible property.

The so-called “protection” of “intellectual property” is actually a violation of other people’s tangible property.

I own my paper and should be free to draw whatever pattern I want on it with the ink I own. Doing so harms nobody. Just because this pattern happens to be your latest novel, shouldn’t matter in the slightest.

[ricklinux]

Sorry but i just can’t accept that. It’s just illogical to me.

[Kresimir]

I don’t know how to put it in simpler terms. Just because you imagined a number doesn’t mean you get to tell me how I can and cannot use my property, specifically my paper and my ink. Right?

[ricklinux]

I don’t think it’s about telling you how you can use your paper at all. I just think your idea of this is not what i believe to be the case in terms of the laws regarding intellectual and non intellectual property. I speak from what is the law in my own country. But i also believe that most of the laws regarding this is very similar in most countries albeit there are some differences in the laws. Not in terms of what you are saying. I’m sorry it just doesn’t make any sense to me and that is why we have these laws to protect a persons work, inventions, designs, trade secrets, trade marks, code etc etc.

[Kresimir]

I agree with you on what the laws say. They say you’re not allowed to use your paper and ink to write down a number that somebody claims they came up with first.

My claim is: the current law, as it is written and in force presently, is immoral and evil. It “protects” fake property and in order to do so, it violates real property.

You do agree that laws can be immoral? Not everything that is a law is good and just, right?

[ricklinux]

@Kresimir

My claim is: the current law, as it is written and in force presently, is immoral and evil. It “protects” fake property and in order to do so, it violates real property.

Sorry i disagree! I don’t necessarily say that the law is unjust. But sure there are circumstances where people are treated unfairly and receive punishment that may be unjust! Even in my Country! People get railroaded sometimes. People get convicted sometimes that are innocent. It happens! But it’s not necessarily because of the law! It’s more to do with people and facts and proving or disproving the facts or facts that aren’t true. It’s also caused by incompetent people!

Edit: You can faceplant all you want. It’s the truth!

[keybreak]

@vazicebon
See why i couldn’t help but godwin myself?!

A discussion on the ownership of (digital) intellectual property

Oh boy…Certain people standing in front of Nuremberg trials had some of those arguments in their defense… P.S. What i mean by that; law is not a God in space that you must bow down to, it can be deeply immoral, senseless, stupid or just plain evil. What to do about that however is obviously our own choice. I choose Judas priest

That’s insane.

I was just following the orders ™

[keybreak]

To keep intellectual discussion interesting:

@Kresimir

Just because you imagined a number doesn’t mean you get to tell me how I can and cannot use my property, specifically my paper and my ink. Right?

If i randomly imagine private seed phrase of your Bitcoin wallet…and would use it to send all those BTC to my Bitcoin wallet…would i violate your property?

[Kresimir]

No. Here is a controversial statement: there is no property in bitcoin, it’s just a number. If you want to keep it safe, keep it a secret. If you are so unlucky that somebody guesses it, tough luck.

[keybreak]

I know, and admire such intellectual and philosophical honesty, it’s just a number…
Just the one that is extremely insanely super-mega-omega hard to randomly imagine

That would still upset you a lot, i’m sure

P.S. btw that’s also a statement for people to secure their wallet with cold wallet sign, so nobody can just guess it without confirmation from your 2nd physically isolated machine…

[JKMooney]

Oh FFS, the recurring assertion that software is nothing more than a collection of binary numbers is a straw man argument, fundamentally false, and a weak rationale for piracy.

[Kresimir]

@keybreak

That would still upset you a lot, i’m sure

Yes, yes it would. But I am consistent enough in my worldview that I would say: there is no theft, since there was no property.

But yes, I would be upset. No spinning seal could make me relax.

[Kresimir]

@JKMooney

Oh FFS, the recurring assertion that software is nothing more than a collection of binary numbers is a straw man argument, fundamentally false, and a weak rationale for piracy.

How is that false?

Let’s do a demonstration. Here is a program that prints “Hello, world!” five times, written in x86_64 assembly for Linux:

Source code

.section .data
message:
  .ascii  "Hello, world!\n"
  length = . - message
.section .bss
.section .text
    .global _start
_start:
    .set WRITE, 1
    .set EXIT, 60
    movq $message, %rsi
    movq $length,  %rdx
    movq $1,       %rdi
    movq $5,       %rbx
write:
    movq $WRITE,   %rax
    syscall
    dec  %rbx
    jnz write
    movq $EXIT,    %rax
    movq $0,       %rdi
    syscall

Here is the binary after it has been assembled. It’s an ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped:

Binary executable

01111111 01000101 01001100 01000110 00000010 00000001 00000001 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000010 00000000 00111110 00000000 00000001 00000000 00000000 00000000 00011000 00000001 01000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 01000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 10010000 00010001 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 01000000 00000000 00111000 00000000 00000011 00000000 01000000 00000000 00000101 00000000 00000100 00000000 00000001 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000111 00000000 00000000 00000000 11101000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 11101000 00000000 01000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 11101000 00000000 01000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 01111000 00010000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 01111000 00010000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 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00100000 01110111 01101111 01110010 01101100 01100100 00100001 00001010 00000000 00101110 01110011 01101000 01110011 01110100 01110010 01110100 01100001 01100010 00000000 00101110 01101110 01101111 01110100 01100101 00101110 01100111 01101110 01110101 00101110 01110000 01110010 01101111 01110000 01100101 01110010 01110100 01111001 00000000 00101110 01110100 01100101 01111000 01110100 00000000 00101110 01100100 01100001 01110100 01100001 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00001011 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000111 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000010 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 11101000 00000000 01000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 11101000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00110000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00001000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00011110 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000001 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000110 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00011000 00000001 01000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00011000 00000001 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00111010 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000001 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00100100 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000001 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000011 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 01010010 00010001 01000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 01010010 00010001 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00001110 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000001 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000001 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000011 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 01100000 00010001 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00101010 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000001 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000

As you can see, it’s just a number. In fact, most of its bits are zeroes (this is padding for the purposes of alignment). This number, when fed into your CPU, under a running Linux kernel, prints that message five times to the stdout. All software is just numbers.

---

Here is a picture, in PNG format (PNG image data, 17 x 16, 8-bit/color RGBA, non-interlaced):

Here is that picture as it is stored on the disk:

Binary PNG data

10001001 01010000 01001110 01000111 00001101 00001010 00011010 00001010 00000000 00000000 00000000 00001101 01001001 01001000 01000100 01010010 00000000 00000000 00000000 00010001 00000000 00000000 00000000 00010000 00001000 00000110 00000000 00000000 00000000 11110000 00110001 10010100 01011111 00000000 00000000 00000000 10110010 01001001 01000100 01000001 01010100 00111000 10001101 10101101 01010010 11011011 00001101 11000011 00100000 00001100 10110100 10100011 00001110 10010110 10001100 01000010 11110111 10100000 00011111 11001001 00011110 11001001 00101000 01100100 00110011 11110111 10100011 00000110 00001110 11000111 00100000 00111110 01111010 01010010 10100100 11100000 00111011 00001110 10111111 10011000 01011010 00001000 11111100 00110011 00111101 11100001 11110010 00101000 00010100 10010001 10101010 01100001 11100110 01101001 10011110 01010001 10100000 00000100 01100101 01110001 00111110 01111011 00110001 11010000 11110011 11001011 01001001 10111001 00100000 10100110 00110000 10100010 00001011 00011010 00010011 01001100 10110111 00000111 01001111 11010011 10101101 11111001 01110011 10111111 00011111 11100010 01111101 00111101 11101011 01000101 10101111 00100111 10110011 10101001 00100011 10001110 11101101 11111010 11111001 01011001 00000011 00100101 10000110 10110000 11111010 10100110 00100111 11000111 01110110 01001101 00110101 11010011 11101010 11111110 01010110 01001110 01000110 11101001 11101010 11001000 11010000 10010100 11101011 01101101 00110101 01001001 01001100 01000001 11010100 01010000 01100010 00001010 11100101 11000011 00011000 10110101 11101011 01011111 11001011 11101001 01100101 10110000 10101111 10100111 00111011 01101110 11001000 10001000 00010111 00011010 11110100 00100011 11101111 00000101 11101110 00000111 01000010 11101111 11001001 01100010 00000010 11100101 00000101 00111011 01101010 00011011 01110111 10100111 00000011 01111010 11010110 00110011 11001111 11000110 10111111 11001010 00010011 01101110 01110101 01101011 10110110 10111110 11100010 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 01001001 01000101 01001110 01000100 10101110 01000010 01100000 10000010

I risk being repetitive, but as you can see, it’s just a number. All information is just numbers.

[JKMooney]

Straw … Man …argument.