EndeavourOS made it really easy for me to try out arch without all the noise and looking up everywhere online only to install a driver or fix an issue, been using EndeavourOS for a long time now and never been happier (some little issues but those were on me lol)
Anyways what the title says is what I dream to see one day, just like how EOS made it easy to install and use arch without any hustle, I really love to see the same thing for other init stuff like openrc or runint or even s6 and others apart from systemd.
You might’ve heard about the evil and monolithic way systemd manages and controls your system and how many security vulnerabilities it had in the past. That’s why for some ditching this init system might be a way out for a more peaceful system and mind? But its sad to see when you don’t have the option on the distro that had you stopped from distro hopping and all the headaches with all its nice community and the help and also the ease of installation.
I know that systemd made things easier to manage on your system but having other options with your favorite Linux distro won’t hurt right? EOS always gave options to the user.
Like we already have options for bootloader which I don’t see a lot on other distros nowadays (choosing between grub or systemd or hell even going for no bootloader at all from the installation wizard)
Now I agree that by implementing these init systems it might be hard to maintain or manage all the drama it brings and all that but like me and others whoever uses arch has a little bit of knowledge about systems and how arch works, and with this beautiful community I am sure that with any problem we face we will fix it together.
I know there is Artix Linux that is just Arch but without systemd and Void Linux but like I mentioned its the community that makes the barrier to move to other distro only to get another init system. I love the folks here I don’t wanna leave.
At the end my idea might be wrong or not smart or it might actually be smart? Whichever it is I just wanted to get my voice heard and maybe tell me your thoughts about this.
And who would implement this? Since EOS is as close to Vanilla Arch as any other distro, switching something as ingrained as systemd would be a monumental effort. The man-power just isn’t there; even if it was, how many users would truly benefit from this?
Those responsible for maintaining this I’m sure, can make that judgement, and may agree with you. I think we can still have a healthy discussion about the merits of systemd alternatives, without derailing the topic on account of the nitty gritties.
What are the ‘Pro’s’ and ‘Con’s’ of what is suggested here? How does it affect everyone? To suggest change when nothing requires it? What can go wrong? Change for the sake of change at what cost for what benefit? These are the questions that need to be discussed. . . I’m open to idea’s. Don’t fix what isn’t broken. . .
I love the idea of having these utopian -init options in the installer, but this would be, to me, so taxing to the devs/maintainers because of all the extra moving parts…volunteers would have to increase and paid staff would have increase. (IMO).
That said I’ve used -init distros and loved their speed. Does any distro have this option? Artix and Devuan do not have systemd.
I don’t think of systemd as the Great Satan like others, and I’m comfortable operating in the .services area.
But man I always loved that speed. Like a V6 vs V8 thing
You already hit the nail on the head, Artix supplies all the alternative init systems. There is really no need to duplicate the effort. Hang out here with the friendliest bunch, and use whatever you want. I use Debian and Arch, yet still feel welcome.
Do you understand how long something like this would take our team to TEST. I mean we have to test each with each DE/WM that we offer on a vast array of hardware. Each must work flawlessly with each DE/WM we are but a small team who had issues getting out just a few ISO’s last year do to circumstances beyond our control. Please use a System that offers those things if that is your interest.
Previously they had been patching it to work with elogind. A Gnome developer by the name of Adrian Vovk, wrote a blog post on how non systemd distros could continue to offer gnome. There are various components that need to be rewritten however Adrian mentioned in his blog that he added code paths so that distros choosing to go down that route could make it work. See here
The problem is that is still extra work and code and maintenance on the distro level. You would be asking a lot from distro maintainers in order to do it. If there is one thing I can tell you. Most distros don’t want to be responsible for maintaining patches. Distros like Fedora and Arch both have upstream first policies for this reason.
Arch linux doesn’t use the term upstream first, but look at section one where they define their goal of simplicity on the arch wiki. Here is the most important quote from that section Patches not accepted by upstream are avoided, and Arch's downstream patches consist almost entirely of backported bug fixes that are obsoleted by the project's next release.
All of this is to say is that while it can be done. You are asking a lot and hopefully these resources give you an idea on the how and why. This is one of those scenarios where there will never be an end to the amount of work that needs to be done by the distro and the community in order to wrangle software that wasn’t meant to work on systemd systems into doing just that. Everyday that list grows longer and therefore, everyday, so would the maintenance burden .
It is still possible to be a member of this forum but use another distro such as Artix too, I use Artix and a member of both forums.
But I think this would be a lot of work for Endeavour project to manage, as this could end up being 5 different ISOs and configs to test with each update, one for SystemD and then four others for other init systems.
There also needs to be a separate collection of init systems to be managed too, which Artix has, but I imagine it takes more work, an application could require 4 init scripts to be stored in the repository in order to be compatible with every init system available. But the team at Artix are very dedicated on this specific task and do a lot of great work maintaining everything, while I think for Endeavour project this would be out of scope for the project and could end the project itself due to increased workload and pressure.
It’s better to stick to the distros dedicated to these types of systems where the team is dedicated, there are quite a lot of them out there, at least 20 distros from what I recall.
Edit: Just to clarify, I am not saying the Endeavour team is not dedicated, what I am saying is it’s not the dedicated intent of the project scope, which is being as close to base arch as possible. While distros like Artix any developer went in to it expecting this workload as the scope/goal of the project.
I’m not certain how vulnerabilities that have been fixed are a reason to ditch systemd?
There are valid points to criticize systemd, but I think something that has been addressed aren’t them.
I personally don’t have anything against if our devs decide to switch init system, but I think systemd gets way too much hate for reasons that are more or less based on opinions than actual facts.
Also, the workload for doing such change would be massive.
If you want an Arch experience without SystemD, here ya go. They offer OpenRC, runit, S6, and dinit.
I can’t see a reason to split EndeavourOS into various SystemD and init pieces. The work involved alone would be ridiculous. The EOS devs have enough on their plate with maintaining EOS as it is. And they have lives away from the computer screen.
And while we’re at it maybe mkinitcpio should also be added back to the installer to have a choice between mkinitcpio and dracut? But seriously I think the devs have better things to do with their time than to do something like this.
Yes, I have like the similar issue. I love EndeavourOS, and by that I mean both using it and the community. I don’t like the thought to leave 1 part of it behind. My only gripe is that I have no choice but to use it with systemd, I would absolutely love to have that choice. If EndeavourOS gave me the choice today with an announcement like “hey we now also have some other random init system to choose from” I would take it instantly.
I am well aware that this means a lot of work for the Endeavour devs. (Work beyond our comprehension) And if I had more than just a couple years of Linux experience (or if I at least had programming experience), I would offer my help without hesitation to help make this real, but right now I would rather be a burden than help…
But I think a lot of work could potentially lifted of if like this cool futuristic EndeavourOS without systemd option would use the artix repos and just ship the already existing endeavour tools on top of it. Something like that…
But to be clear again…because there is so much negativity in the comments… I really like the thought of it, I really wish it would be easy. I know it isn’t. And I know EndeavourOS doesn’t have the manpower for it.
FWIW I like that (dracut aside) Endeavour sticks closely to upstream Arch, and that makes it easier to install and use.
If I want to try other init systems, I would much prefer a distro that has dedicated the time and documentation to it. Using other distros doesn’t prevent you from participating in this forum.
sticks closely to upstream Arch, and that makes it easier to install and use.