Consider prioritising use of Linux LTS

I came from Debian Sid----because I wanted software that was bleeding-edge (and to leave the politics of Debian behind)…I enjoy the occasional wrestle with software & the benefits outweigh the negatives in my mind (a scary place to be----for sure!).

My hardware is about 1 generation behind the latest…its cheaper that way & it keeps me close to current offerings (I sell my old hardware on eBay & buy new hardware just before the new generation comes out). So, using Linux or Linux-Zen is the option I want…I’m really looking forward to 6.6 & 6.7 because of Intel Arc & BattleMage support…

So, that’s my 2 cents worth…I DO keep the LTS kernel installed—just in case…but I’ve not had very much need for it. If someone can’t use the latest kernel…just install LTS & let that “work for them”.

Am I missing something here? I have always installed Endeavour and in the installer selected both the LTS, and Zen kernel in addition to the default AKA The Latest & Greatest", and had them in the grub boot menu, and now in the system-d boot menu all the same. I don’t use the LTS unless I can’t boot into the OS with the other two kernels: It’s a fallback for when there are problems with the OS, which are very rare.

Maybe it’s not available in the offline installer, but it has been in the online one for as long as I can remember, and I have been using EOS since it’s very beginning. I think there’s even a way to download and save it and other software’s on any media it fits on and tell the installer to install it via a script just for that purpose, but that’s not something I have played with yet.

Also: as others pointed out, any distro based on Arch that installs the LTS kernel by default is defeating the whole purpose of a rolling release, and bound to break all kinds of stuff (Manjaro?), including the reason for their very existence in the first place: To have the newest bleeding edge OS and software!

Linux is a great OS, but just like changing from Windows to Mac, or dealing with any new OS, you can’t just install it and expect it to do exactly what you want the way you want, or exactly like whatever you have been using before. The many Linux distro’s and models they are based on don’t exist to be all the same, but all different on purpose, to fit different people, with differing needs, but in the end you still can add to and subtract from any Linux distro to your hearts content for the most part.

It really helps to do your research before hand, before any endeavor (US English). Do you just buy a car first and then figure out what all it can do and how, or how it compares to your old ride, what features it has, and so much more?

I don’t think so, but if you do, who but yourself can you blame for not doing your homework first, most of which you can read in the main EOS website (just like with all other distros) before you even make the choice, read or watch reviews, comparisons… and preferably read up on Linux in general first and foremost, because there’s a lot to READ AND UNDERSTAND first, before even choosing any Linux distro.

The primary issue here is what kernel the ISO itself is using, not the installed system.

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“Borkjaro”! :rofl: :smiling_face_with_three_hearts: :hugs:

I don’t see the problem if you just stick it under advanced options.

The ISO doesn’t have submenus. It doesn’t support them currently.

Although, even if it did, it wouldn’t be very discoverable if stuffed in a submenu.

I think this all goes back to “what is the problem we are trying to solve here?”.

Even if we had LTS as a boot option, we wouldn’t ship an ISO with a broken mainline kernel…

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OK, but at issue is also using the live media as if it were a complete system: Linux OS’s including EOS can be installed to a removable disk as a complete system, and booted with whatever options the BIOS allows, and most can throw up a boot device choice automatically on every boot once you tell the BIOS to do it. And the live media does also have gparted on it and usable from the live media which is a wicked good partitioning/management software. So whoever complained about having to install one and dependencies must not know that, even though it’s harder to miss than find.

I see absolutely no need for any other kernel in the ISO than the one it and especially the installer needs to work.

As for the “Memory issue” that’s a completely separate issue altogether, because even the latest greatest Arch kernel and most live environments can even run on a fancy IOT toaster with only a single core processor and 1GB of RAM, and in case it’s not 64 bit yet, there’s an “Arch 32” being maintained for that specific purpose!

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TL;DR - Arch is not for new to Linux users. That is what Debian and/or Ubuntu is for.

without the years of experience I had using Ubuntu (et al.), Linux Mint, openSUSE, Antergos, etc. I would have a really hard time dealing with Arch-based systems

Probably not entirely relevant to the thread, but I can not resist the need to tell you that I could not for my life get into Ubuntu because of GNOME, the first distro that got me into Linux at all was Manjaro with KDE (all hail KDE), and only little more than half a year later I switched completely from daily driving Windows only to daily driving Linux only. It took only little more than half a year of daily driving first Manjaro then Parrot until I switched over to daily driving EndeavourOS since Decembre 2021 and I can not see myself changing distros unless some very drastic change happens to EnOS or the distro dies entirely.

The DE experience was a very subjective one, some like GNOME after coming from Windows, some are neutral to it, some, like me, can’t handle it, at least for a start. But I don’t think I’m that special for the Arch stream being my truly first and quickly my primary preferred flavour of Linux for desktop use. I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about with Arch not being for new users.

Also, in the brief period I had struggled to use Ubuntu, I was also forced to use CLI to fix and accomplish certain things. So that is not a valid argument for or against Arch, as far as I can tell.

From what you’ve said, the DE was the issue for you, so your points here are not really accurate.

Take this scenario as an example:

Imagine there was only Gnome (Oh Gawd - that scared me :scream:) when you tried to switch.

That’s all I’m going to say, really. What I’ve said before and what others have said above and in this thread covers my point. :person_shrugging:

From what you’ve said, the DE was the issue for you, so your points here are not really accurate.

Yes, but that’s not my main point. I apologise if I was making this unclear with all my ramblings…
The really import part is that Manjaro, which is sorta kinda based on Arch, and then EndeavourOS are distros I tried without even one full year of prior experience and I don’t think I could be any happier. I started out with Arch as a beginner and stuck to it with satisfaction. And I’m certainly no tech wiz.

Why did you switch to Linux?

Also, did you not use pamac while using Borkjaro? And do you still use it? :thinking:

PS: I don’t actually consider Borkjaro as Arch-based. :person_shrugging:

Why did you switch to Linux?

First time I tried Ubuntu was out of curiosity. First time I was kinda forced to use Linux was luckily after I discovered Manjaro KDE, and it was because I was unable to use my desktop for a few months in the summer of 2021 and my Laptop couldn’t run the pre-installed Windows system properly, lol
But it ran and runs just fine on Linux. :smile:

And now I’m just using Linux because I’m a lot more happy with it in many aspects. I can’t call it perfect, but nothing is anyway, and Windows is way more frustrating to me and also, as far as I can tell, much less capable for the most part, or at least more difficult to work with. So I honestly fell in love with Linux pretty quickly, and only in part because of KDE (all hail KDE).

But if you intend to continue this conversation beyond this point, I think by now it really is high-time we would move this somewhere else, because I don’t think this has much to do with the whole Linux LTS thing. On that topic, though, can confirm that my main machine can’t run it, so having it be the default would be a bit meh for me, lol

Also, did you not use pamac while using Borkjaro? And do you still use it?

Oh, I did use it… until I stumbled upon pacman -s. Since then I frankly just didn’t bother to install either pamac or even octopi :joy: (the latter of which I discovered through Garuda during the brief period I was distro hopping before landing on Endeavour)

But I also had to use CLI for different things. I mean, don’t ask me what, been too long for my garbage memory to recall anything, but I am absolutely certain that I did use the CLI for other things. And I still do - my .bashrc ain’t 350 lines long for just a nicer shell prompt, heh

PS: I don’t actually consider Borkjaro as Arch-based.

Oooh, that’s what you mean with Borkjaro. Well, anyway, I switched to EndeavourOS not a year later, so my point still stands, in case that was supposed to be an objection. If it wasn’t, I can only comment “fair”, I don’t understand the differences, but apparently they’re rather major. I couldn’t really tell in the few months I used it.

The thread I linked to has most of my points on this matter, as well as others’ points of view.

But essentially, your first “Arch experience” was kinda like using Windows on Linux, which made it easier to deal with. I’ve used Borkjaro KDE, which is the reason I asked you that question. KDE can make switching to Linux from Windows feel like the only real differences are some of the apps. Couple that with a “click this button” package manager, and it’s like you’re not even on Linux.

But as you said, these points are unrelated to the post.

^ Antique hardware owner approves.

Well it seems like Zen and Hardened are gone as selections now, for the Galileo release. I totally get it, too — the extra kernels added some degree of confusion, and Zen, as well hardened has been likely pain points that some novices had failed to avoid. I just find it funny that along with paring back their selection of environment presets (cutting “Community” selections), they’ve also pared down their kernels.

Oh well, nothing a little arch-chroot into the /tmp directory Calamares makes can’t fix.

Why not install linux-zen and linux-hardened (and their respective -headers packages after a system install from Arch Extra like any other package?

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My thoughts exactly

Nothing funny about loosing contributors to the project. These were done as we have no one to manage these areas anymore. With a small team like ours Kiss is the standard we must live by. If you want to volunteer your services and help with the Zen and or Hardened Kernel I’m sure we can accommodate.

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Only as a reminder… EndeavourOS Developers are here. :wink:
We are not the elite hidden group deciding ove rthe heads of everyone, we are always open to critics and suggestions and indeed contribution to make the Installer better and easier to use.

There is a need to keep things simple in the core of the idea on creating developing and maintaining the installer and ISO.

And one main selling point of the installer is to keep it stable easy to use and understand… and not failing as much as we can.

We do review what we do and decide if we keep options, remove them, or improve them, as we are also the people in charge of maintaining it. We can not go adding every little option users want to have, we need to keep an eye on keeping it generically easy to use and understandable for everyone. This can be to remove things, like Community Editions and Kernel Options.

On Kernels i can give some more info in addition what was said already:

For the ISO it would indeed be possible to add LTS Kernel, it would make the ISO a little bigger, it would need to develop a solution to implement, what is calling some bigger changes on the used archiso build scripts and configurations, and indeed calls in for constantly need to maintain this related to changes on archiso and packages. The benefit would be minimal, as dalto already said we would not ship ISO with a broken Kernel, and if community find out issue with the kernel of some sort we would go rebuilding the ISO with updated kernel that include the fix for the issue.

For the selection of kernels inside the installer for online installs:
We had LTS and ZEN there before, LTS is still there as an option:

This have some limitations as if you add a kernel it will set this as default on bootloader to be used… and it is problematic in case of kernel agnostic drivers/packages what makes the install process and needed scripts more complex.
And every extra option is causing confusion.

But we made sure that experienced users always have the option to customize the installation.

You can add packages and even scripts to run right away with the install.
https://discovery.endeavouros.com/installation/customizing-the-endeavouros-install-process/2022/03/
These implementations open the installer for endless possible changes.

Simple add:

linux-zen
linux-zen-headers

to user_pkglist file and installer will install the ZEN Kernel if you want that.

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I don’t think hardened was ever in the installer. We only removed zen.

Removing zen from the installer didn’t have any relation to the community change. It was about trying to streamline things and make the install simpler and less prone to error.

Ultimately, there was no great benefit to installing zen during the install since it was getting installed in addition to the mainline kernel. Anyone who wants zen can easily install it post-install.

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