Come roll with us with our heads towards the future

Looks like that this thread as well will “derail” soon in the same way the other did.

:roll_eyes:

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Speaking of the Croatian War of Independence, I was there, I remember it like it was yesterday: the '80s and the '90s were my childhood. The only thing worse than the war itself were the final years of the communist Yugoslavia, with the complete collapse of the economic system, and the all encompassing poverty that resulted from it. I was in my teens when we first had running water and a functioning toilet in our home.

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Thank you for sharing that history! :enos:
I’m really glad that you’ve made it out in one piece from that bloody war!! :+1:

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I think it is best for us all not to go in that rabbit hole and dig deeper. We do repect everyones opinion, just keep in mind we’re a big international community with a love for Linux and it is certainly not worth to continue on and dig every single word and sentence everyone says. Let’s just take a step back and reflect.

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:de:

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:fr:

There’s a title on my shelf by Brigadier Ben Barry, “A Cold War”, oddly enough I know some of the characters portrayed in that book, people who are approaching their twilight years. Having read your commentary, and knowing what you and others who spent time in the former Yugoslavia went through, your commentary on moving forwards with kindness and a little perspective have far deeper meaning.

Hatred and prejudice sometimes grow from sparks to ignite an entire community. That’s no less relevant online than it is for any land suffered upon during our history. I would hope we can eventually move beyond such obsolete thinking, one step at a time.

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You are completely right, of course. But the way we speak about it makes it seem like this “incident” was sparked by hatred and prejudice. It was not. It was a stupid joke which wasn’t even offensive to gay people (except maybe to iMac users).

Yes, hatred and prejudice are bad, and should be condemned. However, I don’t want people to get the impression that members of this forum somehow act out of hatred or prejudice. That is certainly not the case and I’ve never experienced anything like that here. Quite the contrary, people on this forum are among the friendliest and kindest people online, and I don’t think we should call anyone here hateful or prejudiced, unless there actually is clearly demonstrable hatred or prejudice (in which case, I would be the first to say that such a person does deserve the privilege of being here with us).

I would say that this was a huge overreaction, but somehow, saying that is now considered a “microaggression”, too. Which is absurd. There exists such a thing as an unreasonable overreaction, and it is not hateful or prejudiced to point that out.

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I wasn’t referring to that item Kresimir, only Bryanpwo’s post about his experiences serving. The last paragraph was generalised, it’s time to move on :slight_smile: :+1:

This is what bothers me:

A member of the community makes a joke (without any intention to offend anyone!) and two other members make a fuss over it. After they are told (by a moderator): “relax, it was just a joke”, they escalate the situation and, ultimately, leave the forum (and, by the way, I’m quite upset at them for leaving over something like that, as I quite enjoyed having them around). And now everyone is talking about how bigotry is bad (which is the most obvious thing ever, and nobody disagrees with that, of course).

The implication here is clear, surely you see it, too. And I don’t think that’s fair towards the person who made the joke. That’s my entire point. I don’t even know why I care about it, I had nothing to do with any of it, I just can’t help but to be bothered by the implication.

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… and yet someone did take offence. Was the joke malicious? Probably not. Did it all escalate way too quickly? Yes.

Without knowing exactly what they’re thinking it’s very difficult to know whether it’s a reasonable or unreasonable reaction, and given everyone has led very different lives and will have very different views on things, how can we speak for anyone else?

Feelings are weird things - something innocuous to one person could be the most incendiary statement to another, and the only way to deal with the difference is to talk about it. Dismissing someone’s concerns because you don’t personally see them as an issue isn’t constructive and leads to escalation far more rapidly than asking something like, “I don’t understand - tell me why?”

It still might end up being an uncomfortable converstation which may not be resolved, but at least both sides know the other has made an effort to understand the other’s perspective. And, possibly, learn something new in the process.

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It’s a tough balancing act. We certainly want to be a welcoming community, but on the other hand, trying to think of everything that could be offensive to someone is ultimately a sisyphean task as it’s an ever moving target.

It would be nice to have a bit of life in the forum beyond strictly Linux. Get to know each other a bit.

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But surely, if I now explode in a hissy fit to your post and tell you that I’m offended by it and that you are dismissing my concerns, it would be appropriate to tell me: “oh please, stop being a drama queen!”, would it?

In fact, when I voiced a concern over some kernel patch back on the Manjaro forum, you did exactly that and locked the thread I started. You weren’t very bothered by how my feelings were being dismissed at that moment. And to be completely honest with you, you were probably right, as I wasn’t being very reasonable at that moment. :wink:

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I’ve just updated my profile accordingly :smirk:

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No, but then there’s no intention of being dismissive in what I wrote. I tried to make it clear that to understand something you have to ask questions without prejudice.

That might be a false equivalency - it wasn’t a discussion about something personal but rather something which could have easily been checked (e.g. reading the content of the patch file) and had plenty of discussion and review in the various linked mailing list threads.

There’s a difference between raising a concern based on supposition and dismissing someone’s life experiences.

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Amor y paz con Paul y Ringo

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Absolutely correct. But showing that sort of empathy towards other people is what builds trust.

This is nothing to do with hypermoralism - essentially, in the words of comedian Adam Hills: “Don’t be a dick.”

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My point is that people can get offended over practically anything, and that walking on eggshells around such people can get tiresome really quickly. Just because someone is offended, does not make them automatically right, and it does not make them automatically deserving of empathy.

Empathy is precious and should not be wasted on people who get upset over trivial things. Sure, these things might not be trivial to some people: to someone, an innocent joke said on the internet might be worth fighting to the death over.

Personally, I think such people are just being petty. :man_shrugging:

And even though it may sometimes not look like it, I really try not to be a dick to anyone :smiley:

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Of course! Though I think one of the core issues here is what qualifies as being a dick can change from person to person. I think the vast majority of us would have a very similar definition of what that is, though.

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Yes!

But if we get into the habit of asking ourselves “am I being a dick?” then that’s well on the road to being a better person.

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